Scene analysis: select a key scene and interpret its significance in the text's larger meaning. What does that scene allow Fitzgerald to express - or what attitudes or intentions are expressed unintentionally by it?
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The American Dream. What does Fitzgerald criticize? What does he value?
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Discuss Nick's unreliability as a narrator. What doesn't Nick see?
Hi everybody!
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In the 1920's there were changes in women rights. The 19th amendment gave women the right to vote and many women were being elected into high political positions. In The Great Gatsby, women are "loud and proud" about being women. They feel the need to express themselves by getting out in the world and acting equal to men. In Gatsby, Jay Gatsby throws many parties and many women attend these parties. The woman attending act wild and they don't care what people think. These party scenes in the book sound very similiar to women in the real world. In the 20's, "Flappers" were women that drank, wore shorter/tighter clothes, and acted "loose" around men. The party scenes in the book allow Fitzgerald to express how women felt during the 1920's. By listening to women in the book, we learn what the attitudes of women were like. They wanted change and Fitzgerald helps us see how women expressed themselves in the 1920's
ReplyDeleteThis is true Dustin, but there is another side to it. The reaction of men to the suffrage of women. Men are trying to maintain their dominance, and The Great Gatsby has many examples of this. Tom violently slaps Myrtle during an argument. Tom is a very overbearing presence who is trying to keep control of the women in his life. He was, as Daisy said, not present at the birth of his daughter, and when he discovers Daisy's unfaithfulness, and that Myrtle is moving West his life begins to fall apart as he loses control over the women.
DeleteI would have to agree with you because Fitzgerald does express how women expressed themselves by being loose around men and wanting to wear shorter and tight clothing,etc. He does a very good job on expressing the attitudes of women on how they were like in the 20's.
DeleteNick is genraly unreliable as a narator because he is a third wheel in almost every circle that he is in. This means that where other people might know something, they are not likely to confide in him their secrets or their worries. This is shown by Gatsby refusing to tell Nick that he was in love with Daisy, instead having Ms. Baker do it for him. Also, the wrongdoings that people do are rarely found out from Nick, but we find out about other characters' wrongdoings through simple gossip. This skews the vision of the book, particularly when Nick hears gossip about Gatsby killing a man or something like that.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree Mr. Patrick. We can not discover the secrets of every character because Nick is the third man. The only time we can hear about a story change is if Nick finds out about it. We get information by gossip from other characters to Nick. This makes Nick unreliable.
DeleteI would agree with both of you here, but if I were to add anything here about Nick I would say he jumps to conclusions, more than the average person does.
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Though Nick is often an outsider in situations, there are times in which he is more informed than the average person. For example, when Nick invites Daisy over to tea, he is one of only three people who know that it is really for a meeting with Jay Gatsby, the other person being Jordan Baker. This knowledge gives Nick an insiders perspective in this situation, but at other times he is very much an outsider.
DeleteI also agree with Patrick, and Reed. Although nick does have an insiders view on some situations he fails to get most of the details and secrets that a "non 3rd wheeler" would get.
DeletePatrick is right in the sense that he is a third wheel in every circle he is in but the reason he is unreliable as a narrator is because of when he arrives and in the fashion he does. Nick comes into play after every one is already got their little dramas going, Nick doesn't REALLY know how everything started and so he jumps to conclusions. If he were to aerie earlier and see the start of everything maybe he would be able to reflect more of the truth in a more accurate way.
ReplyDeleteOh and the post above counts as a reply to Patrick's post as well as an original post of my own so...
DeleteNicks unreliability character,is very unreliable, for one he is always a third wheel, and not many people want to be with him. For instance in the book when he gets drunk at Myrtle and Tom's party in the city and ends up in the photographer's flat looking at his portfolio,with the photographer in his underpants. Also he is very undecisive about his decisions, and when he is unsure of what his decisions should be he will just jump to conclusions.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Hanelore on the fact that Nick is a third wheel and doesn't really mind. Also the fact that he is unsure of many decisions leads to him jumping to conclusions which leads to his unreliability.
DeleteEliza B.
I agree with the fact that Nick is unreliable narrator, but I feel that the fact of the matter is just that, he is the narrator. He doesn't have to be reliable as it's his point of view. The story wouldn't be add good if he just knew everything and it's simply his character to be the third wheel or to not be fully informed. Is the narrator of any first-person narrative 'reliable?'
DeleteI agree, I believe that there are very few, if any, first person narrators that are "reliable." The narration is an opinion, and part of what makes opinions interesting is their ability to change over time, so they cannot be defined as reliable.
DeleteAn important scene to one of the overarcing themes to the story is on the train during the hot day when Tom realizes that Daisy is cheating on him with Gatsby. Tom has had a mistress for a while up to this point and Daisy is aware. The interesting thing is that it is a very casual scene. There is no excitement over the mutual realization of adultery. Fitzgerald is conveying through this scene that unfaithfulness, and adultery are not reprehensible sins, but part of life. This is a very unromantic and dark theme that is prevalent throughout the novel.
ReplyDeleteI agree that this is a very important and revealing event, and that it is a great example of the unromantic relationships between almost all couples in the book. However, I don't think that Fitzgerald is demonstrating his belief. that adultery is acceptable through this scene. I believe he is simply saying that it was the general conception during that time that cheating is okay. I've felt that Fitzgerald has been portraying his opinions through Nick, and Nick tends to have different views than the majority of society. So I agree that this scene displays the dark and impersonal relationships couples had at this time, but I don't believe that this scene reflects Fitzgerald's own opinion
DeleteI believe that rather than Fitzgerald expressing his own views in implying that adultery is acceptable, he is giving a historical and socially accurate scenario for the time period the book was written in. The times were far different from now, and relationships seemed to be less of personal affection and more of opportunity, meaning that adultery was acceptable when used for an advantage to the "culprit" so to speak.
DeleteDuring the 1920's many people had money and leisure time to enjoy it. In The Great Gatsby, Mr. Gatsby was having parties all the time. Whether it was for his enjoyment and being social or it was to meet up with Daisy, Mr. Gatsby always seemed to have a party. The scene allows Fitzgerald to capture an image in the readers mind of how the entertainment life style was during that era. Whether it was the "flappers" being loose around men or to create an image of how the social life was, that is a way to allow Fitzgerald to express the scene.
ReplyDelete~Hannah Munro
I agree with you Hannah! I also believe that this shows how much people liked to have a good time. In the book, people showed up to Gatsby's parties when they were not even invited!I believe that this shows that only the wealthy could hold parties at such a large scale, but everyone showed up to enjoy the band, the company, and the drinks!
DeleteNick was an unreliable narrator because he receives almost all of his information from other people, and rarely finds things out on his own. For instance, Nick didn't know about Gatsby's drug store scandal until Tom told him, he just assumed that Gatsby had been telling the truth. This proves that Nick is rather gullible, despite hanging around the incredibly dishonest Jordan Baker. His lack of knowledge about the people he is dealing with, forces him to jump to many conclusions about them. He assumed that Gatsby was everything he said to be, when of course he wasn't.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you and you used good scenes to make your point.
DeleteI think that it is interesting how you said he jumps to conclusions about people because he specifically says that he tries not to. I do see where you are coming from though by saying that he jumps to conclusions.
DeleteFitzgerald creates the fantasy of the American Dream. He displays an atmosphere that is both charming, and disturbing. The American Dream is displayed in this book as having riches and taking everything we desire, even if it involves life.
ReplyDeleteWomen in the 20's were just earning their rights and becoming more, should I say, social-able. They were expressing themselves in more profound ways and they had more courage. This, however, made them feel as though they were not being controlled by men anymore, and felt they could wander. Adultery is a reoccurring theme in Fitzgerald's masterpiece, and I believe he is criticizing this behavior, although so many people had come to accept it.
Fitzgerald seems to value the idea of having a good time. Gatsby's large parties and other social gatherings show a friendly, fun interaction between characters.
Austin (J)
I agree with Austin, and I think that this was well thought out. I really think that the time period, as she described, was a very effective setting, but sometimes find myself thinking of it as a modern-day scene. The women's changing attitudes really flipped some things around.
DeleteNick does not have an overwhelming sense about him that says "you can believe everything I say". Not the most outgoing of characters, he tends to sit back and let the rumors come to him. Most of the information he receives is passed from person to person, or at least not directly from the subject themselves. He doesn't ever question sources, just assumes that what they say is true. Even though he realizes that Jordan Baker is dishonest, for some reason he doesn't even suspect that anyone else could be.
ReplyDeleteReisa
Nick is unreliable as a narrator because, rather than using knowledge from credible sources, he listens to rumors and believes that they are true right away. Many people in "The Great Gatsby" seem to be very dishonest, which means that Nick has incorrect information.
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with the fact that Nick uses rumors most of the time instead of knowledge, but on accession he uses knowledge. One example of this is when Gatsby actually tells Nick the story of his life.
DeleteI would agree with you that Nick listens to gossip, rumors, and stories as his sources of information and that many people in the book are dishonest. Fitzgerald does use a lot of flashback though, to help Nick prove the things he is knowledgeable about. Like, as Dustin said, Gatsby's life story.
DeleteI agree with everyone's opinion here however, I do not believe that Nick has incorrect information. Like Kiran and Dustin said in recent comments that, Nick has the knowledge however just doesn't use it as much as he listens to all the rumors. Finally, he does have those people which are trying to help him find his knowledge and belief.
DeleteIn the scenes of Jay Gatsby's parties, Fitzgerald expresses the changes in the way women act. Before this time period, women didn't have many rights. They couldn't vote and they were seen as inferior. In the time period that "The Great Gatsby" is placed in, women are becoming much more "loose." In these scenes they got drunk and acted foolish around men, even if they were married.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this but what is the significance of this to the story? I think this shows that men and women alike were experimenting with new ways to express themselves and were not afraid to do so because of newly found freedoms as individuals and as a country.
DeleteFitzgerald value hard work and criticizes the views of many people in society. Gatsby truly reflects Fitzgerald's value of hard work to achieve greatness. This is the American dream at its greatest. Gatsby was born to a poor family and worked super hard to make money and to become wealthy. Tom can be a symbol for Fitzgerald's criticism for how society in the 1920's viewed the wealthy. Tom accused Gatsby of bootlegging. This shows that wealthy during the time were thought to of not worked hard to get where they are. Fitzgerald values working hard to become superior.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Fitzgerald criticizes society, and I also believe he values morals and contrasts immoral actions to show this. I think that how Tom and Gatsby contrasted for the wealth in the 20's; "old" money vs. "new" money was social differences in their actions such as politeness, social skills, and grace. "Old" money people were the ones that inherited money and their parents behaviors, while "new" money people that struck rich in various ways like Gatsby really were kind of oblivious to how they should act in the upper class social scene. I don't think they were veiwed as not hard workers, but more as oblivious on how they should act and veiwed with contempt by the "old" money people.
DeleteNick is unreliable as a narrator. There are many things he isn't clued into, and doesn't see. For example, when he is at Gatsby's party, he only listens to things he hears; he doesn't really jump into any conversations. Gatsby told Jordan that he is in love with Daisy instead of Nick, meaning Nick is also an untrustworthy character. Most characters' mistakes are mentioned through gossip of other characters, not through Nick. Also, he tends to jump to conclusions about things, instead of taking the time to find the truth in other people's words.
ReplyDeleteNick is an unreliable narrator through out "The Great Gatsby". He is unreliable because he trusts rumors that he hears and then makes accusations of his own off those rumors. Nick puts total faith into people he just met and what those people tell him. In addition, these people who are feeding this information to Nick could have history with other people and are trying to tell Nick what they think is the truth.
ReplyDeleteEliza B.
I feel that there are points in the book when when Fitzgerald gives the best view of the american dream, but other times he shows where the American dream is lacking. For example, while Gatsby did build himself from the ground up, showing ambition and determination. However, he uses a lot of that wealth trying to get the attention of a married woman who has long since moved on. So though he dies wealthy, he never ended up getting what he truly wanted, which was Daisy's love. So the matter at hand is the definition of the American dream, is it the ability to come from anywhere and still be able to end up wealthy and successful? Fitzgerald's view of the American dream may not always be defined as a personal dream-
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question Megan, to me the definition of the american dream is to get as far in life as you can with what you are given and it isn't really judged by success, but by happiness.
DeleteI agree with Lauren, and what you said about Gatsby, Megan. In the end, even though Gatsby acquired such lavish things, and had so much money he could never have the thing that he had wanted ever since he head been young, and I think most people are alike Gatsby in that way.
DeleteNick is an unreliable narrator because he would rather put his trust into those who spread rumors and false information. However, as Nick is getting all this information, its conceals the truth. It distances the truth. Also, i believe this society like our own...it is a matter of another person's beliefs effecting yours and your outlook on situations.
ReplyDeleteNick is relatively unreliable and limited as a narrator because he can’t see everything going on outside of his own experiences. He bases his narrations mainly on his thoughts and less on his experiences, because he mostly keeps to himself throughout the novel. We never see any of Gatsby’s affairs with Daisy because Nick is never there with them to witness them together, and we are left to our imagination with their affair.
ReplyDeleteIn The Great Gatsby, one of the first very important scenes is when Nick finally meets Gatsby. Nick is invited to one of Gatsby's parties, and he is searching for Jay Gatsby to introduce himself. After searching with Jordan Baker, he sits down at a table and begins to talk with some people, one of them being Gatsby. At first Nick does not know this until he makes a reference in which he introduces himself as Gatsby. This shows that though Gatsby is extremely rich, he is much like an ordinary man.
ReplyDeleteThis is a great point!!!!11!1111! Gatsby showing Nick that he is more than just a rich snob. This is very important to Nick's relations with Gatsby and helps him to better relate to living his luxurios lifestyle.
DeleteAs I said earlier, I don't think there is ever a reliable first person narrator, however, what makes Nick specifically less trustworthy to me is his lack of curiosity. Because of his total lack of curiosity, you never know if he has all the facts, he might only have one biased version of the story. Nick especially displays this lack of curiosity when he hears about the rumors of Gatsby killing someone. Rather then investigate such a provocative and condemning claim, he just passively waits for more information to come, which is this particular case, it does. However, such a lack of seeking truth makes the reader wonder about the other events he relates, and their reliability.
ReplyDeleteI also believe that Nick jumps to conclusion in response to his lack of curiosity. He doesn't delve into things, therefore when his makes his mind up it shows that he has no idea what he is talking about.
DeleteNick is an unreliable narrator, because he doesn't really know the the truth in what he talks about. He just goes off of what others say, without knowing the real truth about what really happened. He believes rumors as well as spread them. He just overhears parts of conversations but doesn't really know the full story
ReplyDeleteNick is an unreliable narrator because he changes his mind quite often. Maybe he isn't exactly wish-washy but he doesn't keep his morals and actions on the same line. Often times Nick seems to know what he is talking about when certain scenes proves that he does not in fact. He also comes to hasty conclusions without sorting through the facts himself.
ReplyDeleteNick is definitely not a reliable narrator. He personally has connections with the people, creating a bias in his personifications of these characters. Also, any events or information that was present before him has been alluded. This makes soem of the characters hard to explain, like the relationship between Gatsby and Daisy before she married Tom. Finally, the status of the book depends on Nick's state as in when he gets drunk at Tom and Myrtle's. Therefore, Fitzgerald should have chosen a third person without ties to the story.
ReplyDeleteDo you think instead of having a third person, should Fitzgerald just have narrated, and not even put a person like Nick in the book? Or should he have left Nick in, and put in a person that can easily show two sides of a story or two sides of life?
DeleteFitzgerald values the American dream in the sense that anybody who works hard can achieve happiness and fulfillment. However, he criticizes it because with the vast amount of potential one holds in accomplishing their goals they tend to lose sight of what is truly important to them along the way. This is shown in Gatsby. Gatsby is born poor and falls in love with a rich women. In order to fulfill his perception of the American dream Gatsby resorts to crime in order to become the person he thinks Daisy wants him to be. He is already beginning to sell his soul in the pursuit of happiness. Years later we find Gatsby staring across the sound at the light at the end of Daisies dock. He had achieved wealth but had somehow lost his love along the way. Daisy is another example who sells her soul in the pursuit of the American dream because she chooses George over her true love, Gatsby. She most likely does this because Gatsby is not a typical rich aristocrat and in her American dream she perceived herself as a high class citizen who marries a high class man.
ReplyDeleteNick, in my opinion and apparently everyone else's opinion as well, is a extremely unreliable narrater. The main reason is that he fails to recognize the details that would ad a great deal to the story because he is to busy not being a part of things. I mean sure he gets the big ideas across and he nails the basics, but who cares about all that stuff if there is no inner details that only someone who was really there could have noticed and would be able to share.
ReplyDeleteI think that one very important scene to the book was when Nick comes outside to see Gatsby standing in his yard looking out at the light from Daisy's dock. This scene begins to show one of the biggest themes in the book, the fact that people have much hope and a longing for things that have been in there past, but events in the present never play out like they have before. It unintentionally expresses the feeling of losing things as we get older, and we may never be ale to get them back, perhaps it's just better to move on.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, but I also think that Fitzgerald wanted the green light to represent the american dream. I think that he was trying to point out that no matter how close it may seem, it is always out of reach and unachievable, like you said.
DeleteIn the Great Gatsby, Nick is an unreliable narrator. Most of what we learned about Gatsby and Daisy's past together came from Jordan, who Nick even admitted was dishonest on page 58, but he chooses to believe her and lets his feelings cloud his judgement. As readers we can not know for sure what happened in the past. Also, Nick tends to be biased towards Gatsby in his narration because of his admiration for him. Due to this, readers often feel negatively towards Tom, but we often forget that Gatsby is chasing a married woman and doesn't have a claim on her.
ReplyDeleteIn some ways, I think that Nick is an unreliable character because he just doesn't care. Yes he likes having Gatsby as a friend, but does he really care about what is underneath the skin of Gatsby. He likes to be around him, and he gets an inside look at everything rich people have, but do you really think that Nick would do anything for Gatsby? I don't think that he cares enough, so that is what makes him unreliable. It's all quite complicated, and even at the end, he doesn't even care about the relationship between him and Jordan Baker. This all makes him extremely unreliable as a narrator and also as a person.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that Nick doesn't always care, but I do believe that Nick does care about Gatsby. I think this because when Gatsby died Nick took care of the whole funeral. Everything that Nick did for the funeral was for Gatsby and what he thought Gatsby would have wanted.
DeleteI think that Nick cares, but he chooses to be silent and this looks to be carefree from the outside. Maybe he is trying to look like he doesn't care to save him from the troubles that could cause.
DeleteP.S. ^ SPOILER ALERT!! haha
One of the most powerful scenes is when Nick first meets Gatsby. The way people talk of Gatsby makes him seem so special, ant out of the ordinary, but when Nick first meets him, he doesn't even know it's him. This scene shows how Gatsby is nothing specail, eben though he hosts huge parties and has a gigantic house. The simpleness of this scene shows the improtantness that is to come.
ReplyDeleteThe real first time we meet him is in the weird scene with the green light that come up periodically in the book that i believe represents the american dream and, along with the eyes, is the most important symbol in the book. It gives the while book a sense of supernatural mystery.
DeleteAn important scene in the Great Gatsby is when Nick and Gatsby are outside of his house on page 20 and Nick sees Gatsby reach for a single green light across the bay, which represents the American Dream. I believe that this scene allows Fitzgerald to express his belief that the American Dream is always barely out of reach and no matter how hard you work, you will always want something more than you already have.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think the only exception to this is in chapter 5 when Gatsby first talks about the green light. Gatsby finally reunited with Daisy and the green light doesn't act as a reminder of what he doesn't have anymore.
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ReplyDeleteIt is clear that Nick is an unreliable narrator. The problem with Nick is that he doesn't infer things that are evident in the story. How Gatsby redirects the conversation away from his work in chapter 5 (and other chapters as well) gives the impression he has a secret. Nick seems unaware of these instances. However, I do believe that it is important for Nick to not have an opinion on what's happening. It helps keep the story interesting and even suspenseful.
ReplyDeleteIn the Great Gatsby Fitzgerald not only shows what he values of the American Dream but also what he criticizes. He values the idea that determination and hard work will get you part of your American Dream. This was shown by Gatsby once a poor man working very hard to gain his wealth, but sadly he could not get what he really wanted which was Daisy's love. He criticizes that once you do have the American Dream people will not only want more, but they also will not be grateful for what they have. By showing Daisy and Tom as "villains", it made them seem ungrateful for the things they had which for most people would be the American Dream. So to sum up I believe Fitzgerald was saying that the American Dream can be achieved through determination and hard work but once someone does achieve the American Dream they will still be ungrateful and want something more.
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DeleteNick is an unreliable narrator in many ways. For example, he thought Gatsby was what everyone said he was when he turned out that he was not. He learns this throughout the book. The part of this problem is that Nick receives information from other people through the book which shows a sense of gulliableness in him.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald believes that America was built up because people idealized it and made it was it was before the '20's when people's moral greediness did not interfere in these dreams. He criticizes how that people with big money soiled this dream by only respecting money and social status stimulated the moral decay of the 1920's because soon everyone wanted to be rich and only worked to be so. It turned for "America- The Land Of the Free" to "America- The land of the rich and the not rich". He values people being fair and ever fighting for a better life through sacrifice to benefit the greater good but that all is dying as he voices in the Great Gatsby.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald values hard work and success rather than money and the easy, carefree, wasteful life. Because when he talks about Gatsby and his parties for example, he uses an underlying tone that shows how he thinks those people are rather stupid and wasteful; they don't understand the world and the poorer classes. Fitzgerald uses Nick at the beginning to show his background and all the hard work he did to get where he was. When Nick starts hanging out with Gatsby, Fitzgerald also uses Nick's thoughts of how sickening the richer people's actions were to him, to get the reader to understand this view as well.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this point, and think the parties do address the American dream like you said. The way all of the rich act show that Fitzgerald doesn't like most rich people, without actually saying it outright.
DeleteThe disadvantage of Nick narrating the story is that he does not experience everything that goes on. He can also not truly tell what a person is feeling. Nick says that he tries to not have a point of view, but it is impossible for him to not have a point of view. It is written from his point of view so he has to have a point of view.
ReplyDeleteOne scene in which Fitzgerald was able to show self-image struggle, was when Nick stayed at the party with the McKee's, despite the fact that the people he was around disgusted him. This shows that Nick will do anything to fit into his elite social status, and not disappoint his new wealthy friends. Nick's struggle is typical of what we still see today, people will do anything to fit in. Nick's struggle is not the only one taking place throughout the story, in fact his is only one of the many. Nearly all citizen's living in the East and West eggs are struggling to find themselves in their wealth.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald is showing his view on the 'American Dream' throughout this whole story. For example, he shows how he values hard-work and honesty in the valley of ashes, and how he thinks it isn't fair that the hardest working are poor and the rich are lazy and snobby, as shown in Daisy. He further shows that he thinks the rich shouldn't be rich as they don't care about anything, such as the dog they bought, and ignored.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald uses wealth as his view of the declining American dream. Gatsby's obsession with wealth shows how his dream of love with Daisy had morphed into infatuation with money. Jordan Baker's wealth makes her seem bored with life and seemingly makes her have no ultimate goal. The American dream, once success and love, was now wealth of great amounts.
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